On the other hand

1. Co-Enrollment. In California it’s been around for about 20 years maybe? When CA decided to stop letting kids who had enough credits graduate early, we did an offshoot into the community colleges.

2. Back up a step, please. Coming from an Asian “the only three universities worth attending are Stanford, Harvard or Yale, or possibly MIT if you are going to major in Physics or Math” family, it took a long time for me to realize that some kids are more gifted in working with their hands than strict academia. My brother for example, can naturally fix or repair anything that is broken. He would have been far better off going a Vo-Tech route if that had been allowed in our family, that being “guided” into a traditional scholar route.

3. Income (or lack of it) limits opportunities, that’s just a fact. But what is far MORE influencing, is the value of active parenting in the home, particularly parents who put a high value on education. When I lived in Hong Kong, my (then) only went to school at age 2–that’s when school starts in Asia. She spoke no Chinese, I was functionally illiterate (in Chinese) but we both worked to make it a success.

I have worked with plenty of non-english speaking parents (english ones too) who do not see the value in education, whose comfort zone is focused on the here and now. While I sympathized with their situation, you have to be willing to make the sacrifices today to have a better tomorrow.

You know, when I was in high school

I never knew about dual enrollment. I didn’t find out about such a thing until I was taking courses at a community college in my 40’s, and one of my classmates was a high school student doing dual enrollment. Is this a relatively new thing, or was there just a lack of information in the late 70’s?
Heck, I didn’t even know about *community* college when I graduated from high school. Even though my high school is highly rated, there was no education guidance that I can remember.

I live in Maryland and we are ranked in first place

Our drop out rates are fairly good and students here are expected to write essay exams by 2nd grade. What has happened is that our special education numbers are higher than average. Personally, I do not think that the answer is asking students to do developmentally inappropriate tasks, but to focus more on quality at the middle and high levels. Instead of pushing students to graduate when they can barely read, the options would be to continue to educate them and as long as they attend classes and do their best, they can get a Hugh school certificate of completion. This is an option for special education students, but I think that it should be an option for all. There are some jobs where persistence and dependability are more important than school smarts. This would tell these employers that these applicants have that important character trait.

Or, the other option that we provide is to continue taking classes until age 21. My school district offers this. Or, we have some students that complete courses through home study or self-paced online learning. Just as long as standards are high then I would rather see it done this way. Offer options to help students meet the standards, but do not lower them.

My dad, years ago, said:

the high school education he received in Mississippi County high school (graduated 1959) was about the equivalent to a jr. high education now. His parents were poor share croppers, with 4 kids (3 girls, 1 boy). They heated their house with a wood stove. My dad had to go out and chop the wood for the stove. If my dad wanted anything in life he had to scrape the money together to get it.

He served in the Air Force for 2 years. After that he has pretty much been self-employed all of his life. It was very difficult in the early years, even till I got out of high school in 1978. However, my dad has worked, pounded the concrete floors in whatever business he had at the time, scrimped and saved. Now he has retired though he still owns and manages several commercial properties. His net worth is probably several million by now. He pays cash for everything.

Oh, and my mom’s family were farmers as well and she went to the same high school my dad did.

My dad, frugal as he is, went to buy PJ’s at Penney’s. He found out that he could get 20% off by opening a credit card. (His visa is paid off monthly before the due date.) His plan was to open the card, make a purchase, then close the account. Anyway, the clerk attempted to open an account and it would not go through …. my dad, though not as rich as VLs, has the same problem with credit reports! His house is paid off, all commercial properties are paid off, he has NO debt and hasn’t for decades. He could not get a stupid Penney’s card but could buy out all the merchandise in the local store if he wanted to. Go figure. Oh, he still bought the PJ’s.

My dad was not successful because of a stellar education. He was not successful due to influential mentors or big wig financing by a big bank or “silent partner”. It was choices he made … one small choice/decision/baby step at a time. It was also due to prayer to God asking for wisdom.

I hope to have 1/2 the wisdom my dad has now by the time I pass on.

I’m sorry, but poverty is no excuse for not possessing language skills

I come from literally dirt floor, path to the bath roots—the first home I remember living in was 2 rooms, and I don’t mean bedrooms I mean two rooms and neither was a bathroom that was connected to the pigsty up the hill from the house.
My father and mother were high drop outs, her 8th grade him 10th. Dad spent part of his formative years living in a one room log cabin with a dirt floor. Besides being in the military in WWII he held only one job his entire life, with the same company for 37 years as a TEMPORARY employee. Yet later in life both Mom and Dad got their GED’s in the same month my much younger brother got his high school diploma. They all three went on to get further education. I finished a three year college course in 18 months. I’ll let you decide my language skills.
While my father was an only child my mother was the 9th of 10. Only her and her brother Kenneth ever made anything to speak of in their lives. And it was NOT handed to them. They both worked hard and asked for no hand outs from anyone. They both also found a way to get an education, neither had scholarships.
Low income is not what hurts students, it’s attitude and life choices. A student CHOSES the classes they take in school. They also choose whether or not to study, or to even attend classes for that matter. Don’t blame low income for the lack of education. My children were raised life is a series of choices and it is the CHOICES you make that will decide how your life turns out.
My children also grew up with a rainbow of friends from every race and economic strata. I could tell you at a young age which kids would get ahead in life simply by the choices they made as youths. One young man was supposedly destined for poverty the rest of his life due to his color and his social status. Oh and he was declared to be “a bit slow.” Teachers passed him on from grade to grade just to be rid of him. He finally as a high school student admitted to my dd that he couldn’t read above a first grade level. She taught him how to read that summer. He wasn’t slow, he simply hadn’t tried to read and learn until he was in high school and decided he wanted more out of life. He chose to study those last three years.
He grew confidence, and graduated far from the bottom of their class. He went on to get further education and now provides for his own family in a middle class neighborhood working a good job. He is there because he made the choice to ask my dd to teach him to read. He choose to not be a statistic. Something any person can do at any point in their life.
Just like all of us here have made the choice to be debt free. Life is a series of choices…

The trend is going back to go tech and tracking students

But only in states that opted out of common core. The college track is so much harder than 20 years ago. The problem is that low income and race will be part of tracking. Language skills are critical and studies prove that on AVERAGE low income and esl students enter school with much less language skills. Thus they start off behind and may never catch up. Thus those kids get put in non college bound classes. Texas is not in common core and we are trying hard to figure it out.

I guess when I killed the “snake” BOA I broke the website for the account

I have been trying every day since I made the final payment to get a screen shot of it showing the account zeroed after the payment posted. (I do have one of the payment confirmation for my payday loan from PBCloans.com). No such luck it keeps saying that viewing the account is temporarily unavailable—for three days now. Yet I can log in and view my still receiving payments account with no problem.

Oh well, I guess they are like Lowe’s once you pay them off you can forget about ever viewing anything online with them again. Man, spoil all my fun, I wanted that screen shot.

Anyway, if you are paying off a BOA that if you have previously closed the account, like I had, know that chances are you will not get the satisfaction of seeing on screen the zero balance. So gather all your proof the day you pay it off before you log out, because you may never be able to log back in.


I wasn’t sure what the response would be to the question of whether college was necessary, but I figured this topic would get some discussion. Never dreamt I’d be reading some of the situations like below. That’s just amazing to me.
Mom was a elementary school teacher of various types for 30 years, and I grew up with the notion (still have it actually) that a child’s education generally makes or breaks their chances later in life. Yes there are the amazing stories of those who overcame a lack of education early on, and those who squandered a solid preparation. But just from the point of view of sheer statistics, it was true then that those kids with a solid education, go on to have solid careers and responsible adult lives in whatever category they choose. But DANG, philosophies have changed a lot since then! We’re having something of a debate in Seattle schools right now about their math curriculum which college educators say is allowing kids to graduate without the faintest idea of how math “works”, and thus they can’t hack the college level science and math courses. But school district folks say it reduces the burden on the teachers for lesson planning, etc etc etc. I can’t help but think there must be a better way to fix the situation than to have a solution where the teachers present canned material and the kids can’t hack even intro math classes as college freshmen. I don’t have answers but that can’t be the best answer.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion on this point. Looks like we’ve got some work to do in the realm of how best to prepare our next generation.

Maybe the high school requirements have been dumbed down in some areas

but in Georgia the requirements have been increased so dramatically that many students are dropping out. They totally faced out the general education tracks diplomas and also the vo-tech. The college prep track was the only option. The guidance counselor at our son’s private school told us that it was a huge issue state wide for all high schools, both public and private. Some districts are actually encouraging kids to consider a GED. The idea was that since Georgia’s test scores were always in the bottom 5%, The state’s standing would only increase if most of those likely to score low were pursuing a GED. So Soon Georgia’s school’s will no longer rate 49th out of 50; but their drop-out rate will soar.
And people wonder why the homeschooling numbers are climbing.

Once upon a time (and really not all THAT long ago

when I went through public ed in the 60s) we taught and used a Classical Education model. More than anything, the value of the classical education model was that it developed critical thinking, analytical and reasoning skills. Not that other systems are not valuable, but CEM requires work, re-work, work (and then more re-work) until one “gets it right.”

Then we decided (about the mid 70s) that our public school teachers could be more efficient when lecturing to 30-40 students at a time (after all, that’s what we do in college!) Except that our colleges presumed they were getting CEM trained students. Lecturing AT a student works to a large degree, IF the student has learned the skill of how to learn.

Along with bloated classrooms, we decided that “FEELINGS” were more important than FACTS. Just go with the flow. Melanie called this dumbing down. While that may be true, I think it really is more than we didn’t want to require mastery, because lo and behold, mastery takes WORK, and demands that you don’t move on to the next subject/class/level, until mastery has been demonstrated (yep, it may mean you get “held back.”)

Having decided that feelings matter more than fact, we then (California anyway) decided to usurp any form of real education, and replace it with social engineering. We can’t speak the words “The Catholic Church” in the same breath/sentence as California History, but we spend entire semesters on La Raza studies.

So our high schools become remedial elementary schools, and our colleges become remedial high schools. Does a 4 year degree (or voc-tech) matter? I think it does. I think at the very least it says: I cared more about myself to do something other than go with the flow.

So how does this all tie back to LNT? Well, the bloated student loan debacle is an outgrowth of our what our kids have been trained via the public ed system: I Don’t Have to Work or Pay now for college- (money or effort), I can just go with the flow (take out a loan) and “later on” I’ll put in the work/effort (if necessary.) No one is going to hold me accountable.

FL does hs diploma and also certificate of completion

the cc is given when the students can’t pass the required end of the year test, but passed the course–they do not get the credit hour for passing the class until they test is passed. the problem with this is some classes being taken though virtual school and the test only being given 1-2x per year at a regular school. with vs, you aren’t guaranteed a start date, so you might not be able to take the test at the end of the course–you may have to wait up to 6 months or more.

The other problem with the schools are that they are no longer offering vo-tech classes. not everyone is cut out for college, but could have a promising career as a/c repair, car repair.

The problem is

That we have dumbed down the requirements for high school graduation so that this doesn’t mean much anymore. The employers need something to show who stands out and now that has to be a college degree. If we could graduate people from high school that were truly educated, then the employers would feel that it meant more. College would be for developing the skills needed for a particular profession rather than for developing a general educated mind.

But, I think that it’s too late for that. When we set a goal of increasing the number of high school graduates, they lowered the standards to get that diploma. Any efforts to increase those standards will be met with resistance. IMHO, we ought to provide certificates of completion for those that cannot meet the academic standards.

I think a lot of it is family based

Other countries are putting an emphasis to their children that education is important and to work hard on your studies.
One reason other countries are doing this is because they have to. Many countries (such as Japan and Germany) require students to take exams before what we would consider high school. These exams place the student into either a college prep like high school or a trade learning school. The trade learning school is then followed by and apprenticeship–which leads to a full time job after completion. Therefore, the parents put an emphasis on their children all the way through elementary schools to do their best and learn the most they can. And since parents like to brag about their children’s scores—they keep the pressure to study on.
However, here is the U.S., while some parents put an emphasis on studies—many are just surviving and rather have their kids working to help support the family—part of which causes our huge high school drop-out rate.
In addition to that–those same parents put no emphasis on education and care not if their children misbehave in school–even in the elementary years.
Worse than that—many teachers look at a misbehaving Johnny in the early years and pin him as not being successful and slowly but surely create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
All that being said–I do not think college is an absolute necessary device for success. Many, many people in our wonderful country have done VERY well without it.
However, I do believe education can never hurt you (unless you are taking huge student loans to weigh you down for years to come).

Just an opinion,
Erika (I have student loans I am working on. However, my 2 kids will be a college senior and junior this year-and soon will be graduating debt free!).

Any comments?

The article opens with a set of statements that American educational achievements are slipping against world standards (but the article doesn’t explain how that’s measured or why it’s occurring). The article author then interviews four 30-something individuals who didn’t attend and/or graduate from college. Their perspectives on their current financial situations, and whether college would change those situations, were rather interesting. I also found it interesting that their attitudes about life and work and a variety of non-education issues, flavored their opinions on whether college would have been worthwhile. They also had some interesting opinions on how their current financial situation was caused by, and/or would have been helped (or not helped) by a college education. Frankly, I think their attitudes shaped their current situation far more than a college education would have. But I thought I’d share and see what the forum thought about the article, and the notions of a) whether college is necessary in today’s world and b) whether the American educational system is failing our young adults.

VERY Excited about my newly arrived cookbook

Happened to watch a YT video using a pressure cooker, and the person held up a book “Great Vegetarian Cooking under pressure” by Lorna Sass (or something like that.)
ANYWAY— she has several, so I bought the vegetarian one and “Cooking Under Pressure” (20th anniversary edition.)
Cooking under Pressure arrived today. REALLY like the looks of it so far….easy recipes, simple ingredients….
Really looking forward to doing all of these recipes….I could start my own YT channel: 150 days of pressure cooking! lol

I think it was last week or the week before

when I saw a segment on Fox News about how drugstores with loyalty/rewards cards are tracking purchases and that the person using the card has (possibly) given up some privacy, even with the Hippa laws. Here is an article, though not from Fox News, about how it happens. I am wondering what others think and if you’ve been denied any products or services that could be tied to this practice.